How long do you wait during an install if you have no feedback
Category Sametime Installers
As people know, I've not exactly been a fan of IBMs attempts to move Domino based products to Websphere, I had pretty much nothing nice to say about the first attempt Workplace IM, wasn't nice about Sametime advanced, and I wasnt too nice about Sametime 8.5. I often wonder how much more successful Sametime Advanced would have been if it was as easy to install as Sametime on Domino, and I know first hand great persistent chat solutions can be built on Domino. Anyway, after spending more time with these products I keep asking myself what is it that makes me think they suck so bad, and I keep going back to the message I said before in this blog, as Domino Admins we're spoilt, we've had it easy, IBM doesn't like easy. We're used to installers that provide feedback, we're use to servers we can upgrade or install in just a few minutes, IBM isn't. IBM loves products that are hard to install, they require consultants, consultants make IBM money. Now true, I make money because these new versions are hard to install, but the money is being spent on installs not on enhancing the products and increasing the ROI available from them. Making the install harder also leads to less customers, they go else where, hosted solutions, or stay on old versions. New products should always be easier, and should always increase the customer base not decrease it.
So why the gripe today, well the last few days have been spent installing Sametime advanced and Sametime 8.5 at a few locations, and I have to say, these installs have way of driving you crazy. First neither product has A installer, they both have multiple installers , but the most irritating thing is the way the installers present you with screens like 27% complete and a progress bar that sits there for 20 minutes whilst it appears the machine does nothing, the processor isn't doing anything, the hard drive isn't doing anything, it's just sitting there with no feedback, no information, nothing. So how long would you sit at a screen before you think it's hung, how often do you need feedback? I've had people ping me saying "how can I tell if it's hung" and I have to tell them, assume it isn't and go doing something else like install 5 domino servers whilst you're waiting. Webspehre could be great, but by the time you've installed a WebSphere solution, you already hate it with a passion.
Ok that was a ramble, but this WebSphere stuff drives me to it.
As people know, I've not exactly been a fan of IBMs attempts to move Domino based products to Websphere, I had pretty much nothing nice to say about the first attempt Workplace IM, wasn't nice about Sametime advanced, and I wasnt too nice about Sametime 8.5. I often wonder how much more successful Sametime Advanced would have been if it was as easy to install as Sametime on Domino, and I know first hand great persistent chat solutions can be built on Domino. Anyway, after spending more time with these products I keep asking myself what is it that makes me think they suck so bad, and I keep going back to the message I said before in this blog, as Domino Admins we're spoilt, we've had it easy, IBM doesn't like easy. We're used to installers that provide feedback, we're use to servers we can upgrade or install in just a few minutes, IBM isn't. IBM loves products that are hard to install, they require consultants, consultants make IBM money. Now true, I make money because these new versions are hard to install, but the money is being spent on installs not on enhancing the products and increasing the ROI available from them. Making the install harder also leads to less customers, they go else where, hosted solutions, or stay on old versions. New products should always be easier, and should always increase the customer base not decrease it.
So why the gripe today, well the last few days have been spent installing Sametime advanced and Sametime 8.5 at a few locations, and I have to say, these installs have way of driving you crazy. First neither product has A installer, they both have multiple installers , but the most irritating thing is the way the installers present you with screens like 27% complete and a progress bar that sits there for 20 minutes whilst it appears the machine does nothing, the processor isn't doing anything, the hard drive isn't doing anything, it's just sitting there with no feedback, no information, nothing. So how long would you sit at a screen before you think it's hung, how often do you need feedback? I've had people ping me saying "how can I tell if it's hung" and I have to tell them, assume it isn't and go doing something else like install 5 domino servers whilst you're waiting. Webspehre could be great, but by the time you've installed a WebSphere solution, you already hate it with a passion.
Ok that was a ramble, but this WebSphere stuff drives me to it.
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Comments
I tried to install Sametime 8.5 on Linux. I failed on Windows. OK I have to admit that I used VMware and only 4GB of RAM. Installer for SCS ran abou 3 hours just to say that ist has not finished successfully, because the FQN did not resolve ( found that after jumping from one log to the other ). ST 8.5 on LINUX ... DB2 installed after the 2nd attempt. OK, so far but how to start the DB instance at server startup? Google to the rescue. Installed the SCS, the Community server, the meeting server. After the last bit was written to disk, I restarted the whole server. Nothing, really nothing worked. No clue what was wrong. Spent 2 days of installing and DOCUMENTING the installation. Nothing was wrong with the install process, no errors, no warnings. But at the end nothing works ... This sucks, really!!!
Posted by ulrich krause At 12:56:11 PM On 04/07/2010 | - Website - |
I was briefly excited when I went from Websphere 4.x to 5 as the admin screens improved. However by 6.x it was clear that the install itself was no faster, more complicated, and impossible to fix/troubleshoot if anything screwed up. At least in version 4 it was so manual, you knew where you missed something. Now I don't bother, I just wipe everything and just start over.
If you want to feel better, do a SBS 2003 to 2008 migration from 32 bit to 64 bit. It will not take hours but days, and the documentation (last one I did was 8 months ago) changed constantly as new issues were documented with new instructions. Oh, and the only supported MS route for an issue with the migration is for you to start the migration over. Yes, you read correctly, so if you notice a bad problem the end of the next week, you are supposed to wipe the 2008 box, wipe the 2003 box, which you left running, just in case, and then restore the 2003 box from the backup from the week before. Don't worry about that week of lost data. It's not important! The worst, was with a client we've had for 12 years back when we were a MS shop ourselves, we upgrade, he left for vacation for a week or so, came back and noticed an issue w/Exchange on the box. MS said start over, even though it was over 2 weeks. Fortunately, he has a friend at MS in their management. He called her up and got an exception.
Now, I made more money on that one "upgrade" than I did with 15 Domino 8.x upgrades that year. Most of the Domino admins just needed a quick answer by phone to post install questions on implementing ID Vault or DAOS. That's not great for my bottom line, especially in a recession when a lot of the development works dries up, but it's great for the Domino shops trying to save money on consultants.
Domino admins only call consultants for help when they are doing something "difficult", like migrating ST from one box to another or going cross platform (Windows to Linux or the other way) and they don't know one of them. The fact that most Domino admins don't need a consultant for Domino admin work doesn't bother me. I'd rather be doing development and increasing their productivity of their Domino install, anyway.
Posted by Tripp Black At 01:02:56 PM On 04/07/2010 | - Website - |
Posted by Carl Tyler At 01:21:23 PM On 04/07/2010 | - Website - |
An install which requires more than 2-3 products to be installed, and disparate parts at that, will never make anyone happy as too many pieces always creates a feeling of what is missing.
Posted by Keith Brooks At 04:36:51 PM On 04/07/2010 | - Website - |
Posted by David Conradie At 09:31:32 PM On 04/07/2010 | - Website - |
Why don't IBM listen to its partners and customers on this. Notes is successful cause its easy, Websphere is not cause it hard.
Make Sametime advnaced as easy to install as Sametime 8.x, they you might get some customers. I will never sell the current version of Sametime its just too difficult. So IBM will be the long term looser.
Posted by Nick Halliwell At 02:54:27 AM On 04/08/2010 | - Website - |
Posted by Henning Heinz At 06:37:18 AM On 04/08/2010 | - Website - |
Instead I will work with the hosted meeting options, and right now, SametimeUnyte is not even in the running as the chosen solution.
Sure I'll run 8.5 internally for building stuff for clients etc. But for my external meetings it's gone sadly.
Now I'm a loyal Sametime fan, if I'm doing this, what about customers that were on the edge?
And this blog entry isn't as much about WebSphere sucking, but about the initial impression being bad enough to put you off it entirely.
Posted by Carl Tyler At 08:37:07 AM On 04/08/2010 | - Website - |
Well put Carl. I agree 100%.
Posted by Steven Roberts At 05:59:12 PM On 04/13/2010 | - Website - |